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Triquatra
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United Kingdom
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 Posted - 2012/06/21 : 14:12:08
if the human race couldn't talk - I would have probably ended up with my wife much sooner! lol
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Future_Shock
Advanced Member
Australia
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Posted - 2012/06/21 : 18:06:23
quote:
Originally posted by Tastetherainobw:
After reading this, I have a question. Would you still be with your partner if the human race wasn't able to talk, and would our instincts kick in to pick out the best mate to bear children?
Yeah without verbal communication i think we might regress evolutionarily... who knows though. I mean there are other ways to express yourself and body language etc... I don't know that's a really complicated question.
The basis behind evolving beyond instinct is basically to do with the fact that we're not limited to just surviving anymore. Food is basically a non-issue to first world countries... we don't have to hunt for it any more... or protect families from predators... Personality and means of being able to provide for a family plays a much bigger role so... Yeah i dunno.
quote:
Originally posted by Tastetherainobw:
And another question. If men are wired to bang as many girls as possible to spread their genes, how does homosexuality play into this. Same goes with woman, if woman are there to be child bearers. Then, why does the attraction to another woman happen? Wouldn't our instincts overpower our "prefrances"?
What about people who are asexual? or bisexual? Or are born with 12 toes? Or hermaphrodites?
Evolution favours diversity. So many things have evolved to what they are today because of a gene mutation or a slight variance on the "normal result". If you believe in Darwinism. If you don't... well... most of science points to that's how it goes.
Anyway, that's how things evolve. Difference. Homosexuality especially doesn't just occur in humans, it exists in other species as well. It's pretty rampant in the animal kingdom.
I've seen studies proposing that homosexuals (and other situations which involve not being able to parent children naturally; sterility, homosexuality, asexuality) were nature's way of keeping the population in check. There's a million different things that can go...awry.. during conception of a child. It's not an infallible process. There's always a random element of chance to just about every single aspect to a person. If homosexuality was detrimental to a species survival then it wouldn't exist. Natural selection. But it seems as though homosexuality doesn't have any inherent health defects... so... it occurs in a lot of species.
Although homosexuality is an odd one to explain... and that's probably why we don't have a definitive answer to it (that i know of, anyway).
About instincts vs. preference: Homosexuality isn't a preference. It's a change in the brain chemistry that makes you attracted to (instead of the opposite sex) the same sex. The instinct IS to be attracted to the same sex. We don't understand how it happens but we know it's seriously wired in there.
There have even been "situations" of groups (usually extremist religious groups nowdays - but from the 60's onwards it was the "standard" psychological treatment) that have tried to "cure" homosexuality. It's usually an extreme example of aversion therapy.
Aversion therapy is the use of the exposure of something unpleasant when you do something you don't want to/shouldn't be doing. You might have seen this when you were younger in a basic form. I remember my sister used to bite her nails a lot and when we were on a camping trip, my dad grabbed her hand and rubbed it through dirt... so every time she bit her fingernails she'd taste dirt. That's aversion therapy.
Although the kind of aversion therapy they used for "homosexual treatment" involved being exposed to homosexual porn, and then treated with emetics (drugs that will make you vomit) and electric shocks. Yeah, not surprisingly, they found it didn't work and now it's illegal in a lot of places... But i believe it was only made illegal as late as the early 2000's sometime.
Anyway, that's a tangent. My point is homosexuality IS the instinct. That's why you cant break it.
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Tastetherainobw
Junior Member
United States
105 posts
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Posted - 2012/06/21 : 21:27:15
Very insiteful.
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Lilley
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Australia
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Posted - 2012/06/22 : 04:40:07
In all honesty I would not be surprised if a significant amount (didn't say majority, just significant, enough to establish a correlation of sorts) of homosexuality is as a result of nurture rather than nature.
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Future_Shock
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Australia
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Posted - 2012/06/22 : 06:26:38
quote:
Originally posted by Lilley:
In all honesty I would not be surprised if a significant amount (didn't say majority, just significant, enough to establish a correlation of sorts) of homosexuality is as a result of nurture rather than nature.
Interesting. Why do you say that?
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Lilley
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Posted - 2012/06/22 : 07:56:37
Because a huge amount of what makes people what they are is nurture. It's a roll of dice really, what your parents drilled into you, who your friends were at school that shape your personality and who you are today. Introspectively, I can see aspects of myself that I have carried ever since a little kid, but some that developed through peer pressure/encouragement etc.
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Triquatra
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Posted - 2012/06/22 : 09:19:21
^ could be said for anybodies taste though eh? no matter hetro or homo.
its going to be down to nature and nurture for everyone; fact still remains..it is what it is.
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Future_Shock
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Australia
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Posted - 2012/06/22 : 09:37:14
quote:
Originally posted by Lilley:
Because a huge amount of what makes people what they are is nurture. It's a roll of dice really, what your parents drilled into you, who your friends were at school that shape your personality and who you are today. Introspectively, I can see aspects of myself that I have carried ever since a little kid, but some that developed through peer pressure/encouragement etc.
I can see what you mean, but what about the aversion therapy? If it's not hard-wired into you then surely it's breakable? I mean, what you're talking about is habits and preferences. Likes/dislikes. Are you saying you think sexual orientation is based on the development of personality? Personality being ideals/beliefs, preferences, habits etc. Notice i said DEVELOPMENT of personality. That being said, though, i remember hearing that apparently your personality is almost completely developed by your very early age. Like 3-5 years old. The rest is habits/preferences.
Although if you want to take a behavioural route through nurturing then that SHOULD be able to be altered. I mean just about every other behavioural psychological aspect can be altered through drugs. I would think that they would have found a way to alter sexual orientation then, no? But then again even the words "sexual orientation" implies it happened from the beginning.
I do know what you mean. My sexual preferences (not orientation; i'm heterosexual) have changed a lot as i get older - so i do believe that at least a certain aspect of it is influenced by environment or psychologically. Honestly, i don't know. I think it's an itneresting topic and i'm just trying to open it for discussion.
Although i will say that what about siblings who grow up in the same house when one is homosexual and the other isnt? What about homosexuals that grow up with no homosexual friends? I have a gay friend who grew up with two brothers and two sisters (none of whom are gay) and his family is super normal. Had super normal friends. He says he can remember a time in the third grade where he knew he was gay. Knew it, without question and has just 'gone with it' ever since. It's an odd topic.
quote:
Originally posted by Triquatra:
^ could be said for anybodies taste though eh? no matter hetro or homo.
its going to be down to nature and nurture for everyone; fact still remains..it is what it is.
Not a truer word spoken.
What i find immensely interesting is the "why" though. Why do people act the way they do. Why are people the way they are?
Sometimes i think i should have gone and studied psychology (or at least social psychology) at uni haha
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Charco
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Ireland
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Posted - 2012/06/22 : 10:34:52
Sorry to go slightly off current discussion but...On the previous topic on relationships:
When I was growing up, I never had a gf...had very brief 'encounters' with girls nothing more than that. At that age all sort of things go through your head when you see almost everyone have no issues gaining a relationship...the usual questions 'what is 'wrong' with me?', 'why can't I find anyone?' 'am I even gay??'...eventually concluded that the more I looked the harder it would be to find...'smell of desperation....'
The 'need' to be in a relationship was, at the time, a mixture of social status and a genuine want for a relationship with the opposite sex.
Fast forward a few years and I'm working in a bar and what started as flirting ended up being a lot more serious but not how I'd expected.
From what I heard from other experiences, the whole issues of 'next steps' was constantly a nervous one and usually make or break moments...Our decision to move in together was decided on a walk to the shops and within a week we had our own place. Marriage came about just as calmly. As though it was 'supposed to be' and It all happened very quickly. Within a year and a half of first being together - we were engaged and the year after, we were married.
Due to things going so 'smoothly and without effort', I did question myself as this was my first girlfriend, my first relationship....and I was going to marry her.
Jump forward another few years and we are coming up to our 2nd wedding anniversary and being together for 5 years....and by far it's the best thing to ever happen to me.
Every view on any relationship can only be based on a very individual basis though as I've got an unfortunate friend who got married but now is no-where near the person he once was...due to a controlling and manipulative other half...I can only assume has arisen from her own insecurities...but this doesn't mean that marriage is not for him...just possibly the 'wrong' mate. But again, that is only my opinion as we never know what goes on behind closed doors...nor is it really any of our business.
Just a quick question too....to those who are/were married; what are your thoughts on the whole 'Marriages are hard work' quote that seems to get thrown about...how much work should go into making a marriage 'work'?
On the subject of preference....I've never been a fan of big boobs....small and petite for me...
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Lilley
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Posted - 2012/06/22 : 14:52:10
quote:
Originally posted by Andy_Influx:
Although if you want to take a behavioural route through nurturing then that SHOULD be able to be altered. I mean just about every other behavioural psychological aspect can be altered through drugs. I would think that they would have found a way to alter sexual orientation then, no? But then again even the words "sexual orientation" implies it happened from the beginning.
I was being purposefully vague for a reason, it's just an idea. And I have also heard of people switching between orientation. I don't think orientation implies anything at all, it just means pointing/direction/aim. It could easily be a reproduction gone wrong thing, or it could be something that alters the way the mind works when exposed to a trigger or stimulus at an appropriate time. Or it could be a combination. What I do know of is several gay guys who had issues with their father as they were growing up. I also know that's not always the case. Just as much as there are several straight guys who had issues with their father as they were growing up.
quote:
I have a gay friend who grew up with two brothers and two sisters (none of whom are gay) and his family is super normal. Had super normal friends. He says he can remember a time in the third grade where he knew he was gay. Knew it, without question and has just 'gone with it' ever since. It's an odd topic.
That's really weird, particularly as guys don't develop sexual attraction until 12 to 14.
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Triquatra
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Posted - 2012/06/22 : 15:16:10
one of my favourite things in life is human instinct.
this kind of relates (loosely) to what you were just saying Andy
that point where a person forgets completely about themselves and any danger that could come to them and just acts
truely the best part of human nature.
throwing yourself in to save a drowning person in rapids..even though you've no idea who it is..and it could kill you.
also why Kirsty Maccoll is one of my "heros", nothing to do with her music (though Walking Down Madison is a superb track). Its how she died.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirsty_MacColl#Death
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Edited by - Triquatra on 2012/06/22 15:19:17 |
Quicksilver
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Sweden
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Posted - 2012/06/26 : 15:42:38
I can chime in a bit on the homosexuality discussion here.
Since I was a young child, I know I have always found an attraction to guys but I never realized it until 3rd or 4th grade. I can remember some weird attractions to my male friends from as far back as 3-4 years old. Note that I didn't know what it was back then, but there's has to be a reason I can remember some of those parts so well? I could give some examples but it feels awkward to put them on an internet forum, haha.
Also, since I figured out at a young age that I am gay, I have talked to and met many other homosexuals. The vast majority of those have had something happen in their childhood - most of the time it's a divorce or death of a parent (this is true in my case too, my dad and mom separated when I was like 3 or 4 I think, and my mom died when I was 8) and I don't know if such a traumatic experience can trigger something but I've thought about this many times because it seems overwhelming to me. Now, there are of course many people who have experienced these things in their childhood and still are straight, of course.
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Warnman
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Germany
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Posted - 2012/06/26 : 23:24:23
Wow! I'm really impressed by your words, Quicksilver. Although you have never done anything to hide your gay preferences, you have had the balls to face the truth! I kind of admire you for such a developement. I have experienced times in which I wished to turn out to be gay to explain many of the strange feelings in my life, but now I do have started to enjoy my own way of life, just like you.
Enjoy your life! It's perfect, just the way you do! 
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