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Luz1978
New Member
United Kingdom
73 posts
Joined: Oct, 2020
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 Posted - 2020/10/10 : 16:21:51
Hi all, I am starting to record all my vinyl to wav/mp3, mainly happy hardcore stuff like eye opener, your my angel, follow me, that kind of era.
What I can?t understand is if vinyl from that period isn?t great quality wise, or I don?t have a great set up and that?s affecting the quality of the final recordings.
I am using a pioneer plx-500 with an Ortofon Concorde DJ and plugging in to my pc via line in (tried via a mixer and also using a pre amp) and I have also tried using a reloop tape2 external recorder.
All methods seem to give the same kind of result which is just the final recordings sound a little ?fuzzy? to me but am comparing to more modern tracks I have or remastered stuff Kevin energy did recently etc,
My question is what quality can I reasonably expect, anyone got a few recordings of vinyl form a similar area they could share so I can compare the sound quality. I think I am hoping for too much, so hoping someone can confirm either way. Happy to share some of the recordings I have done for comparison etc...
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DJ_FunDaBounce
Advanced Member
Colombia
2,023 posts
Joined: Nov, 2001
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Posted - 2020/10/10 : 16:57:35
The question is: Does your ripped version sound the same as your vinyl version? That?s what you should be comparing it to.
If there's a big difference from the vinyl and the digital result, there must be something wrong with the signal path.
Do you have a dedicated sound card?
Comparing it to other (digital) releases will only make you doubt. Mastering for these tends to be cleaner and louder compared to vinyl.
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"Fun with a capital F-D-B!"
http://www.brightspeedrecordings.com/
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Samination
Advanced Member
Sweden
13,178 posts
Joined: Jul, 2004
195 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2020/10/10 : 20:45:22
For a hobby fix, I used Magix's Audio Cleaning Lab (I think they've changed the name now) to rip and then clean out the vinyl.
If you intend to use it as well, DO NOT USE the default De-crack or de-pop settings, as they will hurt the sound, especially when it comes to hardcore. I always start both out around 10% of the meter and the go up until I notice the spectrogram showing removed pops.
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Samination, Swedish Hardcore DJ
Happy, UK Hardcore, Freeform, Makina and Gabber
http://samination.se/
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Luz1978
New Member
United Kingdom
73 posts
Joined: Oct, 2020
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Posted - 2020/10/11 : 14:05:07
Thanks for replies, I have gone back and listened to some of the tracks I have digitised and there is definitely noticeable differences in the sound quality between some of them, so guess that is the issue, that the source the vinyl isn?t a great quality for some.
I suppose as I am recording them and then really concentrating on listening to them via headphones rather than out of my monitor speakers etc I am picking up more about the sound quality than I have thought about before.
I am using a dedicated sound card and it has a dedicated ?line in? connection, so that part of it shouldn?t be an issue.
I am using audacity, so will try the other programme that was mentioned
Also I need to put more time into getting the recording levels right I think.
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Edited by - Luz1978 on 2020/10/11 14:08:10 |
Samination
Advanced Member
Sweden
13,178 posts
Joined: Jul, 2004
195 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2020/10/11 : 14:09:03
as for normalizing, if I dont use Audio Cleaning Lab, I use Sony/Magix Sound Forge. When you record the vinyl, try to stay below -5dB as much as possible. You can't help if there's a click that goes above, but as long as loud sections never go above -5 to -4dB, you could always normalize later to as close as possible to 0dB (I usually go to -0.1dB just so it wont complain about clipping)
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Samination, Swedish Hardcore DJ
Happy, UK Hardcore, Freeform, Makina and Gabber
http://samination.se/
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Edited by - Samination on 2020/10/11 14:09:23 |
GrahamC
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
591 posts
Joined: Dec, 2007
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Posted - 2020/10/11 : 14:19:10
What is the USB port on the back of the PLX500 for? Can you rip using that?
::edit:: I just checked the website and it seems to say you can rip straight to a HQ wav file via the USB port...
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Edited by - GrahamC on 2020/10/11 14:22:09 |
Luz1978
New Member
United Kingdom
73 posts
Joined: Oct, 2020
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Posted - 2020/10/11 : 14:24:26
Yeah, it has a usb lead which you can use to connect to a pc, but I think the phono out connection sounds slightly clearer when comparing it to the USB sound quality.
I think maybe I had unrealistic expectations on what the end product would sound like, especially not having listened properly to my vinyl for quite a number of years!!!
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Samination
Advanced Member
Sweden
13,178 posts
Joined: Jul, 2004
195 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2020/10/11 : 17:22:51
Have USB gotten better? I've seen someone say that the latency on USB is worse than the audio-in jacks on most motherboards. But that was ofcourse 6-7 years ago
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Samination, Swedish Hardcore DJ
Happy, UK Hardcore, Freeform, Makina and Gabber
http://samination.se/
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GrahamC
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
591 posts
Joined: Dec, 2007
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Posted - 2020/10/11 : 19:20:58
No idea but you have the industry standard in Pioneer saying that it does HQ rips as WAV right into Rekordbox so you kinda hope they know what they are saying and they have the tech to back it up...
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Impulse_Response
Advanced Member
United States
724 posts
Joined: Jun, 2013
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Posted - 2020/10/12 : 01:16:42
I'm inclined to think it's something about the production and disc mastering processes of the time. I have quite a few Jelly Baby records and others I've imported. Many have an odd fizzy sound that pops out on my monitors, as well as a strange boxy sound on some of them (phase issues?). Others like BABY14 and BABY31 sound so good they could pass for digitals without the surface noise.
I don't think it's a problem with my equipment because of other stuff I've recorded, like old country and a jazz-fusion album (Casiopea - Make Up City).Those sound phenomenal and don't have the same issues. There are some albums that sound don't sound quite how I like, but I'm sure that's related to the recording and production methods used in those specific cases.
As for USB outputs on turntables, I'd recommend testing them against the analog outputs. I read online that many people had issues with USB outputs and even analog outputs damping the top end, because of some extra circuity you don't find on purely analog turntables. My Audio Technica AT-LP1240 has both, and I was able to test them on the same take by simultaneously recording both the USB output and analog outputs through my Focusrite interface. The analog outputs were noticeably brighter after level-matching the two recordings. I'll post them if I can find them. I'll also add that I don't trust the 1/8" line-in on PCs.
OUTPUT COMPARISON
Analog out with built-in phono:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rnp6x662ql0anmb/Output%20Comparison%20-%20RCA%20and%20built-in%20phono.wav?dl=0
USB Output:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ceilmctldrgrcg9/Output%20Comparison%20-%20USB.wav?dl=0
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Producers and record labels, please stop "loudness war" mastering everything. It sounds terrible.
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Edited by - Impulse_Response on 2020/10/12 05:42:22 |
AWal
New Member
United States
66 posts
Joined: May, 2010
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Posted - 2020/10/20 : 10:52:18
> Always go with what sounds best to you. It's your collection, after all.
> Experiment with different cartridges: I use a Shure for ripping and a Pro S for general playing. Most records sound different between the two, a few don't.
> Eliminate all unknowns from your audio path to achieve the cleanest signal possible: Does your player have a pre-amp? If so, try connecting it directly to a portable recorder that runs on batteries. Does it need to run through a mixer/amplifier? Try disconnecting everything but the player, mixer/amp, power adapters (if needed), and your recording destination.
> Is the player grounded? Can the player be grounded? Sometimes this makes all the difference.
> Has the record been cleaned? If it has a bunch of fuzz in the quiet sections, you might get a better playback from it after giving it a good wipe down with a static vinyl brush proper. I can't recommend washing the records or playing them wet unless you intend to destroy the record as well.
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Twisty Tunes - Original songs and remixes.
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Luz1978
New Member
United Kingdom
73 posts
Joined: Oct, 2020
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Posted - 2020/11/02 : 17:54:35
Cheers for all the replies, I have done some more tests etc and currently am getting the best results connecting to my pc directly via the usb from the plx-500, I have an ortofon DJ cartridge, but only have the stock pioneer cartridge that came with the plx-500 to compare it to (and it seems twice as loud, so is a definite upgrade).
I do have a pre amp etc, so will keep experimenting, but based on what I have done so far I think with the equipment I currently have I am now getting the best results possible.
It?s also clearer than ever having re-listened to my hardcore vinyl after all these years that the quality of sound varies greatly between different releases.
Thanks again to everyone who contributed to my initial query.
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Triquatra
Moderator
United Kingdom
12,636 posts
Joined: Nov, 2003
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Posted - 2020/11/03 : 10:00:09
quote:
Originally posted by Impulse_Response:
I'm inclined to think it's something about the production and disc mastering processes of the time. I have quite a few Jelly Baby records and others I've imported. Many have an odd fizzy sound that pops out on my monitors, as well as a strange boxy sound on some of them (phase issues?). Others like BABY14 and BABY31 sound so good they could pass for digitals without the surface noise.
I don't think it's a problem with my equipment because of other stuff I've recorded, like old country and a jazz-fusion album (Casiopea - Make Up City).Those sound phenomenal and don't have the same issues. There are some albums that sound don't sound quite how I like, but I'm sure that's related to the recording and production methods used in those specific cases.
As for USB outputs on turntables, I'd recommend testing them against the analog outputs. I read online that many people had issues with USB outputs and even analog outputs damping the top end, because of some extra circuity you don't find on purely analog turntables. My Audio Technica AT-LP1240 has both, and I was able to test them on the same take by simultaneously recording both the USB output and analog outputs through my Focusrite interface. The analog outputs were noticeably brighter after level-matching the two recordings. I'll post them if I can find them. I'll also add that I don't trust the 1/8" line-in on PCs.
OUTPUT COMPARISON
Analog out with built-in phono:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rnp6x662ql0anmb/Output%20Comparison%20-%20RCA%20and%20built-in%20phono.wav?dl=0
USB Output:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ceilmctldrgrcg9/Output%20Comparison%20-%20USB.wav?dl=0
This is a great post, love the comparison - though I'd be slightly inclined to say that though there is certainly a difference between those two, without coming under too much fire, you *could* almost chalk the two of those up to preference. I kind of prefer the slightly less harsh sound of the USB to the subtle added brightness of the phono version (or perhaps I should say the dulled USB version). If you switch needles you'll get a subtley different sound again!
100% behind what you said about mastering back then too - as I understand it, the pressing plant runs an EQ over the top of the music as it's pressed in order to get it 'vinyl ready'..and it varys from plant to plant and results in wildly different results on vinyl. Some absolutely terrible, some sound brilliant.
I used to love vinyl, I still do..just not as much haha. Got loads of it, but more and more I've found that essentially when it comes to dance music, vinyl is a totally inferior media. Sure, it might 'add' some authenticity to the old stuff, give it a bit more of a gritty feel which is often needed with old skool breakbeat stuff, but dance music is digital from the get go and so much of it is lost, so often, in the vinyl process that I much prefer the digital...........providing it hasn't been brickwalled and compressed to hell and back in an effort to make it as 'loud' as todays music. I've been trying to get most of my vinyl digitally and have been pretty disappointed the amount of times I've had to go and search out a CD from the time the track was made to replace the new painfully compessed/brickwalled mp3 release.
not sure what saminations on about latency - you're not trying to mix the record as it's recording?! lol
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http://www.hardcoreunderground.co.uk/ - http://CLSM.net -
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Edited by - Triquatra on 2020/11/03 10:04:15 |
Samination
Advanced Member
Sweden
13,178 posts
Joined: Jul, 2004
195 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2020/11/03 : 13:20:32
Someone told me that the sample rate actually outputted by the USB (perhaps back in the USB1.0 days) were horrible compared to using the phone output
__________________________________
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Samination, Swedish Hardcore DJ
Happy, UK Hardcore, Freeform, Makina and Gabber
http://samination.se/
---------------------------------------------
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Triquatra
Moderator
United Kingdom
12,636 posts
Joined: Nov, 2003
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Posted - 2020/11/03 : 13:26:04
Ah sample rate, not latency then!
Yes, I think most of the USB decks these days are still 16bit/44.1hz rather than 24bit/48+hz, still...CDs are also 44hz sooooooo...
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Triquatra/Bee Trax/Cuttlefish
http://www.hardcoreunderground.co.uk/ - http://CLSM.net -
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